The universe appears fine tuned only when we assume there is a creator behind it. The fine tuning argument presupposes a god. That's my biggest issue with the fine tuning argument. I don't think it takes away from the wonder of it though and I find myself still in awe of how vast and expansive the universe is.
I tried Christianity when I was young and it was ultimately a coping mechanism to deal with the vicarious trauma of seeing my sister suffer.
These days I'm a deist, and I guess I don't put much thought in to it. But I e joyed reading this.
Thanks so much for reading and engaging! If you're open to it, I highly recommend "The Language of God" by Francis Collins. He is a Christian who appeals very respectfully and thoughtfully to those who aren't convinced about the existence of God. If you do, let me know what you think!
You're making the case against yourself. Look, it's a terrible thing that anyone goes to Hell, but it might be the worst if it were listlessness which led him there. Some honest fist shaking, snarling heavenward, throwing a brick through a window of a church, a contemptuous curl of the lip when someone tries to witness to you, wallowing with the whores in the mire - at least, there's a sign of life, however twisted and unwholesome, there.
I'm sure you're the best mannered of heathen. I see it in your openness to continuing to read these installments. But I hope your diffidence will give way to the overwhelming fact of God. I do not intend to be rude but I think it's close to irrational to contend that evidence of fine tuning doesn't mean there had to be Someone who did some fine tuning, especially when the object being made was as complex as the Universe.
I'm sorry about your sister's suffering. I've had little but suffering my entire life. When I was seven, I was almost killed, and have lived with two severe, disabling injuries since. I'm reasonably sure I had a child's faith in Jesus at four. I wouldn't describe my faith as notably more refined than it was when I was four, though I know that God has used all of my trials to mature me in it. I have the unshakeable awareness that I'm headed for the Kingdom of Heaven. I'm somewhat Calvinistic at most because I am aware of the numbers of verses in the Bible which command us to believe in - to trust in, to rely upon - The Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins and the gaining of everlasting life.
These things - the accounts which we have of Jesus and His works - have been given to us that we would be able to believe in Jesus Christ, and in believing, have life in His name.
You "tried" Christianity? I'm not being sarcastic or prosecutorial in asking you what you mean by that. How does one "try" God the Son? The moment you believe in Him, He has you in chains and escape is impossible.
Have you read C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity," or The Gospel of John?
"Close to irrational to contend that evidence of fine tuning doesn't mean there had to be someone who did fine tuning"
Please read this back to yourself and have a think. It does mean that. The fine tuning argument puts the cart before the proverbial horse. The conditions for life on earth and are not fine tuned for our existence, they evolved over time and we are the result of that. Unless you think that dinosaurs and humans could coexist, we wouldn't exist if it wasn't for a cataclysm that wiped them out and gave us our own evolutionary highway.
Sorry to hear that you have suffered. I get what you mean about faith but I can only view that from the outside. It isn't enough for me to convert or be convinced.
By tried I mean bible study, youth church, normal church, Christian counselling, bible reading, fellowship with other Christians and things like reasonable faith (William Lane Craig or John Lennox). I think I broke the chains of Christianity maybe.
You presume the conditions evolved. That's queering the argument from the beginning. You have no evidence that macroevolution occurred. But if you start with the presumption that it did, then I suppose that you can reason it out as you have.
Ultimately, reality allows you no room for atheism. Read Romans 1:18 - 22. Consider this. Then read the next ten verses until you get to verse 32. That's your problem, not a lack of evidence, but the lack of a willingness to acknowledge that the evidence is saying what it is saying.
The conditions for human life are the result of evolution. That's what I meant.
I'm familiar with that verse. I don't think the evidence is saying what it is saying, one can open their mind to it but if they aren't convinced then they aren't convinced. It's not like I'm holding myself back from believing.
I surrendered to Jesus as my Lord and Savior at L'Abri in Switzerland in 1983 (while on my honeymoon!). Francis Schaeffer was sick with cancer, but I was privileged to meet that humble, gentle man who greatly influenced my thinking and opened my eyes to TRUTH. My husband and I stayed at L'Abri for 2 1/2 months, asking questions, seeking meaning, wanting more out of life than what the world offers. The grace and wisdom poured into us during that time led to a gradual dawning of absolute truth, and we're are forever thankful to the Schaeffers for starting the ministry of L'Abri.
Beautiful truths, clearly articulated!
The still small voice called me, gently, for many years. When I surrendered, I found the peace I was seeking. Jesus.
Thank you - really helpful way to frame these ideas.
The universe appears fine tuned only when we assume there is a creator behind it. The fine tuning argument presupposes a god. That's my biggest issue with the fine tuning argument. I don't think it takes away from the wonder of it though and I find myself still in awe of how vast and expansive the universe is.
I tried Christianity when I was young and it was ultimately a coping mechanism to deal with the vicarious trauma of seeing my sister suffer.
These days I'm a deist, and I guess I don't put much thought in to it. But I e joyed reading this.
Thank you, you've gained a follower.
Thanks so much for reading and engaging! If you're open to it, I highly recommend "The Language of God" by Francis Collins. He is a Christian who appeals very respectfully and thoughtfully to those who aren't convinced about the existence of God. If you do, let me know what you think!
Thank you Scott
"...I guess I don't put much thought into it."
You're making the case against yourself. Look, it's a terrible thing that anyone goes to Hell, but it might be the worst if it were listlessness which led him there. Some honest fist shaking, snarling heavenward, throwing a brick through a window of a church, a contemptuous curl of the lip when someone tries to witness to you, wallowing with the whores in the mire - at least, there's a sign of life, however twisted and unwholesome, there.
I'm sure you're the best mannered of heathen. I see it in your openness to continuing to read these installments. But I hope your diffidence will give way to the overwhelming fact of God. I do not intend to be rude but I think it's close to irrational to contend that evidence of fine tuning doesn't mean there had to be Someone who did some fine tuning, especially when the object being made was as complex as the Universe.
I'm sorry about your sister's suffering. I've had little but suffering my entire life. When I was seven, I was almost killed, and have lived with two severe, disabling injuries since. I'm reasonably sure I had a child's faith in Jesus at four. I wouldn't describe my faith as notably more refined than it was when I was four, though I know that God has used all of my trials to mature me in it. I have the unshakeable awareness that I'm headed for the Kingdom of Heaven. I'm somewhat Calvinistic at most because I am aware of the numbers of verses in the Bible which command us to believe in - to trust in, to rely upon - The Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins and the gaining of everlasting life.
These things - the accounts which we have of Jesus and His works - have been given to us that we would be able to believe in Jesus Christ, and in believing, have life in His name.
You "tried" Christianity? I'm not being sarcastic or prosecutorial in asking you what you mean by that. How does one "try" God the Son? The moment you believe in Him, He has you in chains and escape is impossible.
Have you read C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity," or The Gospel of John?
Hi
"Close to irrational to contend that evidence of fine tuning doesn't mean there had to be someone who did fine tuning"
Please read this back to yourself and have a think. It does mean that. The fine tuning argument puts the cart before the proverbial horse. The conditions for life on earth and are not fine tuned for our existence, they evolved over time and we are the result of that. Unless you think that dinosaurs and humans could coexist, we wouldn't exist if it wasn't for a cataclysm that wiped them out and gave us our own evolutionary highway.
Sorry to hear that you have suffered. I get what you mean about faith but I can only view that from the outside. It isn't enough for me to convert or be convinced.
By tried I mean bible study, youth church, normal church, Christian counselling, bible reading, fellowship with other Christians and things like reasonable faith (William Lane Craig or John Lennox). I think I broke the chains of Christianity maybe.
You presume the conditions evolved. That's queering the argument from the beginning. You have no evidence that macroevolution occurred. But if you start with the presumption that it did, then I suppose that you can reason it out as you have.
Ultimately, reality allows you no room for atheism. Read Romans 1:18 - 22. Consider this. Then read the next ten verses until you get to verse 32. That's your problem, not a lack of evidence, but the lack of a willingness to acknowledge that the evidence is saying what it is saying.
The conditions for human life are the result of evolution. That's what I meant.
I'm familiar with that verse. I don't think the evidence is saying what it is saying, one can open their mind to it but if they aren't convinced then they aren't convinced. It's not like I'm holding myself back from believing.
Another beautiful reflection!
Thank you!
I surrendered to Jesus as my Lord and Savior at L'Abri in Switzerland in 1983 (while on my honeymoon!). Francis Schaeffer was sick with cancer, but I was privileged to meet that humble, gentle man who greatly influenced my thinking and opened my eyes to TRUTH. My husband and I stayed at L'Abri for 2 1/2 months, asking questions, seeking meaning, wanting more out of life than what the world offers. The grace and wisdom poured into us during that time led to a gradual dawning of absolute truth, and we're are forever thankful to the Schaeffers for starting the ministry of L'Abri.
How wonderful that you got to meet him!